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Post by Xantige on Aug 9, 2012 15:25:24 GMT -5
As I've been tweaking the stats of some of my units, I've been running some small test games to see if they perform the way I want. Since I run an assault-centered alien army, some of my specialists are designed for close combat, and have no ranged weaponry. The problem is, if they attack a unit of Gruntz, how do I treat their attacks? It seems it could go one of two ways:
1) The specialist can only potentially hit and wax a single Gruntz model.
2) Each point of damage over the unit's soak counts as a wound, thus the specialist is able to wax more than a single Gruntz.
For the specialists I've made, the 2nd option is what I'm counting on, since my Gruntz lack long ranged firepower, and need to be protected from being shot up. I was hoping to make some fast, deadly CC specialists that could dive into the enemy's Gruntz unit to tie them up and whittle down their numbers as my Gruntz trudge up the board.
That said, I'm guessing that it's probably the first option that's true?
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wikkid
Sub General
Gruntz General
Posts: 236
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Post by wikkid on Aug 9, 2012 15:36:07 GMT -5
I don't know if this helps. www.gruntz.biz/#!/2012/05/new-assault-rules-11.html Personaly I would go with your second option. As I see it, a rampaging close combat monstrosity is not going to charge in, rip a target into snack sized pieces and then sit on its hand (claws?) meekly waiting for it's lunch to fight back (unles it is a Troll from another game system)... |
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Post by Xantige on Aug 9, 2012 16:41:57 GMT -5
I don't know if this helps. www.gruntz.biz/#!/2012/05/new-assault-rules-11.html Personaly I would go with your second option. As I see it, a rampaging close combat monstrosity is not going to charge in, rip a target into snack sized pieces and then sit on its hand (claws?) meekly waiting for it's lunch to fight back (unless it is a Troll from another game system)... I agree. Although it does bring up the question of shooting. Would shooting work on the same principle or no? To be honest, I'd rather it didn't. I'm fine with my gun-wielding monsters to be restricted to only one shot. For me, that represents them lining up the shot on a tank or unit. Ruleswise, I think Robin intended for Assault to work the same way as shooting, one attack per model, thus only one potential wound per model. That may make sense for most situations, too. I don't know how many people would have a specialist meant for assaulting. Plus, one could argue that a typical specialist wouldn't be able to cause that much damage. A single Gruntz specialist would only be one man/woman/alien. A single Mecha Specialist might be too big, bulky, and slow to do more than one attack. However, I tend to see monsters as being able to do more damage, especially in close combat. I think it goes without saying, that a giant life form has more control over it's movement and attacks than a typical pilot in a mecha -- well -- short of an elite pilot in a state of the art machine. Ah, but now I'm rambling. As I said, I think Robin intended the Specialists to only do a potential of one waxed model. Perhaps the ability to do more than one kill should be made a perk, or be something added to monsters... Any thoughts on such a perk? Does anyone think something like this might be too over powered? |
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Post by Thorvir Hrothgaard on Aug 9, 2012 18:28:10 GMT -5
1) Plays like Warmachine.
2) Plays like 40K.
I prefer 1, and I think (Robin will show up sometime and put us all in order), that's what Robin prefers as well, only for the fact that some of his game mechanics mirror Warmachine.
Doing it the other way makes Assaults monstrously more effective than Shooting. Sure, someone could prove that it should be that way, but I don't like it as (new) players will start leaning toward Assault-heavy armies and the environment of the game becomes more one-dimensional.
Again, our head honcho is the only one that knows for sure, and he'll be along sometime to set this right.
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Post by comstar on Aug 9, 2012 19:31:01 GMT -5
I afraid its the number one option it plays like Warmachine. But I have cheated with one of my specialist beasties were I gave him two close combat weapons so gets two attacks but he only has 4 for assault! so doesn't hit with both very often! I also allow my commanders to have two attacks as this feels right to me, its just the same as when you do with there two shots for shooting  |
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Post by Thorvir Hrothgaard on Aug 9, 2012 22:24:08 GMT -5
I like the 2 attacks for commanders, shooting and face-punching. Works for me.
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Post by inrepose on Aug 10, 2012 9:09:48 GMT -5
Specialists can now have 2 weapons, so potentially two personal claw attacks. It is option 1 though, there are no spread the damage around option in Gruntz (currently). So if you do massive damage to one Grunt it does not spread to others but if you have a second claw attack, you could attack another model in base contact.
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Post by papabees on Aug 10, 2012 10:29:37 GMT -5
You could, in theory, buy the model Grenades but call it "tail swipe" or a flame thrower and call it "Big Claw swipey thing" which would let you attack multiple models. Maybe create a "No Range" flaw. Just some thoughts.
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Post by Xantige on Aug 10, 2012 12:46:22 GMT -5
Doing it the other way makes Assaults monstrously more effective than Shooting. Sure, someone could prove that it should be that way, but I don't like it as (new) players will start leaning toward Assault-heavy armies and the environment of the game becomes more one-dimensional. I see what you're saying, but I've never really seen a game that made an all assault army newbie friendly. You have to master your movement, moving groups of your models into position, while maintaining enough numbers to viably take the enemy out without guns, without getting taken out yourself. Also, if assault being more powerful would make the game more one-dimensional... would it not be one-dimensional if shooting reigned king, as it currently does? That all said, I don't want the game to be unbalanced, it's just... how does it make sense that a model of godzilla could wreck tanks with ease, but could only manage to kill a single squishy grunt? I'll happily await the new monster creation rules to see, but with the game so firmly set in guns and shooting, how can you viably make a monster that acts like a monster, and feels as dangerous as a monster? (ie, the monster can wreak heavy damage on everything and forces the opponent to take it out). Specialists can now have 2 weapons, so potentially two personal claw attacks. It is option 1 though, there are no spread the damage around option in Gruntz (currently). So if you do massive damage to one Grunt it does not spread to others but if you have a second claw attack, you could attack another model in base contact. So, by two weapons, that can be two close combat weapons, two ranged weapons, or one of each? Can you shoot twice (with a -1 modifier) if you have two guns? Or do you only get two assault attacks? That would help a bit, but probably not enough for me to take any non-gun armed models aside from a gruntz squad.  You could, in theory, buy the model Grenades but call it "tail swipe" or a flame thrower and call it "Big Claw swipey thing" which would let you attack multiple models. Maybe create a "No Range" flaw. Just some thoughts. I don't know, that feels like I'm breaking the game in a way, but I may look into it, with the permission of my opponent. Thanks for the suggestion. |
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Post by Thorvir Hrothgaard on Aug 10, 2012 22:00:49 GMT -5
40K is assault heavy, as an example. Yes, you still have to work for it (cover, speed, what-not) but damaged caused in assaults far exceeds shooting. I've seen hundreds of 40K games played over the years, since as far back as their first editions. That game favors assaults.
I don't see shooting as the current reigning king in Gruntz, I see shooting and assaulting equally balance at the moment. Use of cover and timely dashes work well, especially on boards with ample terrain.
If there is little terrain, then yeah, shooting is tough to assault against. If there's lots of terrain, then assaulting works very well.
I think you're super monster godzilla thing would be able to squish multiple foes in close combat, if he has the attacks to do it, or has special attacks that allow him to target multiples. I don't think basic attacks should allow the targeting of multiple foes "just because".
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Post by Xantige on Aug 11, 2012 1:17:56 GMT -5
40K is assault heavy, as an example. Yes, you still have to work for it (cover, speed, what-not) but damaged caused in assaults far exceeds shooting. I've seen hundreds of 40K games played over the years, since as far back as their first editions. That game favors assaults. I don't see shooting as the current reigning king in Gruntz, I see shooting and assaulting equally balance at the moment. Use of cover and timely dashes work well, especially on boards with ample terrain. If there is little terrain, then yeah, shooting is tough to assault against. If there's lots of terrain, then assaulting works very well. I think you're super monster godzilla thing would be able to squish multiple foes in close combat, if he has the attacks to do it, or has special attacks that allow him to target multiples. I don't think basic attacks should allow the targeting of multiple foes "just because". I dunno, I feel I could argue the point about assault and shooting being equal in gruntz. For one thing, your assaulters can get suppressed quiet easily, and once you slow them down, it's easy to finish them off, or keep them suppressed. Since you need two actions to assault, you have to stop quite close to your enemy, and all they have to do is run back, and thus you're denied a charge, you have to continue to run after them, and something else is probably going to shoot you down. If you lose enough numbers before you get into combat, you could also find yourself being the one slaughtered. That all said, I'm open to hearing the points that you feel evens the two out. I don't claim to be a guru of wargaming, I'm quite new to the hobby actually. Oh, and just to clarify again, I don't think EVERY specialist should be able to take out multiple gruntz. I realize that trying to make Anti-Infantry Assault monsters using the specialist builder isn't a good fit. I'm just not sure how else to make such a build. |
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Post by inrepose on Aug 11, 2012 4:09:24 GMT -5
Yes the general theme of Gruntz is that shooting is deadly and the run up and fight claw to fist is not as easy. When I was initially writing Gruntz I had recently re-watched BAnd of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan - The various set piece assaults on different locations made me want to make it hard to flush out or overrun troops with a simple run in. However I have now made some minor tweaks and playtest alterations to perkz to help the clawed fiend type armies get into contact. I think in a sci-fi setting it is great to be able to represent the deadly assault aliens. Interestingly from a movie perspective you seem to either have the Aliens style "tight corridor" assault which does not need many aliens to succeed in overcoming the humans or the Starship trooper style of overwhelming numbers in the open. I think on balance you can stat up some profiles for low cost clawed aliens which you jus point on mass at the enemy with the expectation that many will be mowed down. It would be great if someone made a flying bio-transporter to allow drop-in of xeno types. I have some Khurasan infected troops which are basically being overtaken by the space demons and josedominguez has a great "infected" perk (which has gone into the rules update), which would allow you to field some aliens or zombie types capable of infecting and converting enemy models. |
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