|
Post by Idle Scholar on Aug 2, 2011 5:26:25 GMT -5
I'm using Gruntz to play with my collection of 40k. Oddly short distances aside the only area where the base rules don't feel quite up to the challenge is assault. In fact even after careful reading I don't think the basic rules are particularly clear. For example what happens after the initial charge? Presumably unengaged models can move up, but what about those in contact? Do they get two assault attacks or just one? At what point does assault end? Do you have to kill 25% of the enemy squad and hope they fail a moral test?
So anyway I've come up with some house rules.
1) In an assault action all the engaged models get one simultaneous attack
2) The side with the most kills wins the assault
3) Each unit on the side that loses takes a moral check, adding the difference in kills to their dice roll
4) If a unit fails then that unit must leave combat as described in the Gruntz rules heading away from the enemy. The unit is now at condition brown.
5) Then, provided at least one 'losing' unit has not fled all units on the winning side must take a moral check, subtracting the difference in kills to their dice roll. If a unit fails then see 4)
6) When a charge has occurred the charging unit always counts as winning the melee and so will always check moral second.
|
|
|
Post by inrepose on Aug 2, 2011 7:35:18 GMT -5
Hi Idlesbar, As per the rules, the initial assault has a +2 inches to movement and only models that are able to get into base to base with the enemy Gruntz are in assault and able to attack.
On that initial charge you are able to re-roll one of the damage dice. There is no winning condition in the assault rules, other than the fact that one squad will break if they fail a condition brown check when the unit is reduced by half its numbers in one activation.
You only get 1 Assault attack per model (there might be perkz in the future to allow two for nasty alien types).
Here is an example where a squad of Gruntz assault another one:
Unit of 6 "White Player" assault a Gruntz squad with 5 remaining members "Red Player", they are about 5 inches away from them and have no terrain between them.
All 6 White player models get into base2base contact with the 5 target squad members.
6 Individual attacks are made with an assault weapon (e.g. Combat Knife). This results in 3 Waxed Red Player models. Red Player squad have to make a condition brown check and they fail (they have lost at least half of remaining squad members).
Non-Waxed members of the Red squad have to immediately move 8 inches away from the assaulting squad. As they are moved away the assaulting White player squad gets "free assault attacks" because the red squad is disengaging from Assault. Another 1 member of the target red squad is waxed as they retreat.
Result: 4 waxed red player models are now directly beside the assaulting unit. 1 model is still alive but is suppressed and 8inches away from the attacking squad because it ran from the Assault when it entered Condition Brown.
Basically Assault is deadly, if you manage to hit with the initial charge assault the chances are that the other Gruntz squad is going to suffer casualties. Whatever the result, the combat will start again when the red player next activates its squad - there is no simultaneous attack - the ebb and flow of the hand to hand assault is abstract and represents the best opportunity to do damage happening at the point in which the squad is activated by its owning player.
Good feedback here because I think I need to show a round by round assault action with a few examples. However house rules are also fine, whatever feels right for you really.
|
|
|
Post by Idle Scholar on Aug 2, 2011 9:09:23 GMT -5
Yeah that does clear up your intentions, you should definitely include both an example and an explicit statement of "assault takes 2 actions and results in 1 charge+attack or 1 attack if in contact".
Actually that raises another question, assume red charges white but only manages to get 1 model in contact with 1 other model. Assuming they both survive can white then move unengaged models up in their own turn? Does white have to? What happens if red kills the one model it contacts, are the two squads now out of assault?
|
|
|
Assault
Aug 2, 2011 18:07:33 GMT -5
Post by inrepose on Aug 2, 2011 18:07:33 GMT -5
If only one is in contact, in the next activation red could move up and assault the rest of the white squad - or shoot them, or disengage. If they disengage only the model in base-2-base needs to worry about the free attack against him.
You can break squad coherency for one activation. So the 1 single red figure in contact could be left behind as the main squad either runs away, shoots or even jumps into an APC and gets driven out of harms way. The left over Grunt has to try and re-join his fellow group on the following activation - so on the current one it could assault the white model it was already in contact with.
Basically only the models in contact are in assault with each other.
|
|
peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
|
Assault
Aug 3, 2011 11:11:53 GMT -5
Post by peabody on Aug 3, 2011 11:11:53 GMT -5
I understand that it is not possible to Assault with some members of a squad and shoot with the rest. The Assault Sequence on page 19 spells it out: "The whole squad has to charge". But I have a question regarding the second paragraph from that section: "On the activation that you complete the assault, no models in the active unit can shoot or make other moves unless the Commander uses a Push Move order on the Gruntz squad before they make an assault." So, is it OK to Shoot with a squad and then use a Push Move order to Assault with the same squad? Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by inrepose on Aug 4, 2011 6:26:26 GMT -5
Interesting combo. I have always used push move for move only and it provides only 1 action. However I see what you are saying about combining it to provide an assault by using the spare action left behind by not moving. I will be giving that one thought because push move was focused on movement more than attacks.
|
|
|
Assault
Aug 4, 2011 12:00:16 GMT -5
Post by Idle Scholar on Aug 4, 2011 12:00:16 GMT -5
So it would be fair to say the an assault order is a state that effects an entire squad, but otherwise it's only the involved models that are in assault.
For example one member of a squad could be fighting in hand to hand while the rest of his squad could walk off and shoot at a tank across the board.
Ok another house rule question; it rankles slightly that your close combat skill has no effect on your ability to survive assault. Would adding the (positive or negative) difference between relative close combat skills to your to hit roll be game breaking?
|
|
peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
|
Assault
Aug 4, 2011 21:44:33 GMT -5
Post by peabody on Aug 4, 2011 21:44:33 GMT -5
An Assault action involves the entire squad. The only type of attack they can make is in close combat; if a model can't get into base to base with a target, it won't be making an attack in that Assault action.
That's why I was curious if the Assault Sequence as written allows a separate Fire action before Assault via Push Move. In any case that's how we have been playing it and it's fun. Keeps the commander in close to the action!
|
|
|
Assault
Sept 23, 2011 17:36:08 GMT -5
Post by kealios on Sept 23, 2011 17:36:08 GMT -5
I cannot find where it states in the rules that Assaulting costs 2 Actions. I see on page 10 where it says "+2 Inches to normal move and assault (can not shoot)" on the chart. In fact, in the "Movement" paragraph on page 10, it states "Assaults are a function of movement..." etc that indicates it only costs 1 Action with some heavy restrictions.
This matters because Combat Drugs requires an action to active. The only way to get this extra action to use the drugs, assuming Assaulting costs 2 AP, is with a Commander. This is problematic for my K9 dogs from Khurasan, because as fast-moving Specialists, they wont be counted as a squad, and will likely be well outside the Commander's Mental range (3 dogs at 10" from the Commander means that only one of them will get the Push, if he uses it, but at that range he probably wont be able to).
The only option I can see is that Assault costs only 1 AP...and with Long Runners, can be done at 8"...
|
|
|
Post by kikashi on Sept 24, 2011 3:20:13 GMT -5
It takes 1AP to move into contact, and you get +2" to your standard movement to help you get into base to base, but then it takes another 1AP to make an attack. The commanders push move can help you get into contact, as well, but won't allow you to shoot, as shooting is done after movement.
|
|
|
Assault
Sept 24, 2011 10:30:21 GMT -5
Post by kealios on Sept 24, 2011 10:30:21 GMT -5
Sounds all good and logical, but provide page references, please (Im trying to point out that this needs to be clarified in v1.1)
|
|
|
Post by kikashi on Sept 27, 2011 20:32:37 GMT -5
Page 10, inset paragraph 3 "Movement is completed before shooting" Page 19, paragraph 4, line 3 "0n the activation that you complete the assault, no models in the active unit can shoot or make other moves" Page 14, paragraph 3 Push Move definition "..allow the target unit to make an extra Move action"
|
|
|
Assault
Sept 28, 2011 0:46:56 GMT -5
Post by kealios on Sept 28, 2011 0:46:56 GMT -5
Fair enough. It still doesnt define Assault as 2 Action Points, but seems pretty clear that I need a Push action to get my Combat Drugs off. Fair enough Wish the Big Man would step in. He's been missing for a few days!
|
|
|
Assault
Sept 28, 2011 7:53:37 GMT -5
Post by comstar on Sept 28, 2011 7:53:37 GMT -5
If you download the quick reference sheet from the yahoo group then it clearly states on there
|
|
|
Assault
Sept 28, 2011 17:36:03 GMT -5
Post by zombie4prophet on Sept 28, 2011 17:36:03 GMT -5
Page 19, inset, 2nd Paragraph.
"They move the four inches and then activate an assault attack which uses their remaining 2 normal actions ... "
This seems to resolve the issue.
|
|