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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 21, 2013 21:34:55 GMT -5
Do you think that the modifier (+2 to Guard) for a vehicle moving at flank speed should be based on total distance moved rather than flank speed?
For instance, if I have a Super Heavy Tank in the Assault class, that walks, it will have a base movement of 2". If I have a Tank in the Heavy class that uses Grav technology, it will have a base move of 8".
If the Super Heavy Tank makes a flank move, it moves 4", and if the Tank makes a normal move, it moves 8". So even though the Heavy Grav Tank is moving twice as fast as the Super Heavy Tank, it gains no Guard bonus for speed of movement over the Super Heavy Tank which is moving half the speed of the Heavy Grav Tank.
Also note that having different movement types (speeds) on the same vehicle does not change its Guard stat.
It would seem to me that it might be easier and more reasonable to have the +2 Guard bonus applied to any vehicle that moves over a certain speed...say 12", rather than a vehicle simply taking a double move...
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Post by zephyr40k on Aug 22, 2013 1:01:50 GMT -5
I've also figured that could be an odd thing. Any airborne vehicle gets +2 guard, even if they don't actually move? If we say the vehicle has to move a certain amount, players might just pick up the model, wave it in a circle, then put it back down in the same spot. "There, I moved it."
Unless of course we're using the advanced vehicle rules, which would be different.
I suppose you could hand-wave this by saying that airborne units can "jink" to throw off incoming fire, even if they don't technically move.
So yeah, I support this in theory.. saying that any vehicle can get the +2 move if it travels a certain distance from its starting point. Or say +1 guard for every 6" net movement? So a hypersonic fighter zooming 40" flat-out would get a whopping +6 to guard.... at least until something with AckAck nails it.
On a related note, I've also been trying to check the rules to see if flyers or grav units calculate line of sight across terrain differently from ground units. It does say skimmers can "pop up" over terrain but I think that may pertain to movement only, not that they can execute a pop-up attack and ignore intervening terrain. Or am I wrong?
In other games, you ignore terrain that the ground unit is not within for determining LOS between an air unit and a unit on the ground. Is Gruntz the same? Or do we assume all flyers are executing NOE techniques, hugging the ground and hiding behind terrain? This might well be a reasonable assumption, as attack helo pilots nowadays are trained to do this.
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 22, 2013 2:40:18 GMT -5
Oh that's right, I forgot about the air units getting +2 Guard because the only mention of it I can find is in the Ack Ack perk. Yes, you're absolutely right, with such loose wording, people could simply "move" the unit in question and have it end back in exactly the same location to receive the bonus. Perhaps the wording should be something along the lines of "If at the completion of its move, a vehicle is X" from where it started its move, it gains +2 Guard"...or something similar.
The suggestion you have for an incremental increase in applied bonus is a good idea and one that I think would be especially cool for aircraft...which should be fairly weak structurally and rely mainly on their speed to avoid weapons fire.
In regards to movement of Grav units, this is how I understand it. The "Pop Up" is not actually a pop up attack as such, but more of a description of how they manouvre themselves to traverse high obstacles. Under "Mobility Types" on page 36, it says;
"When a Grav vehicle needs to "pop-up" to traverse impassable terrain or buildings it can pop up to a height of 8" to clear terrain without reducing its total forward movement"
From that, I play it that you essentially ignore terrain for movement purposes as long as it doesn't exceed 8" in height.
In regards to LOS for flying units, the same Mobility Types section on page 36 says;
"The current Grav systems in Gruntz are designed to be most effective when they are close to the ground and are not built for free flight like aircraft. They are near to the ground when shooting so intervening terrain will effect them for the purposes of determining line of sight."
I take this to mean that for Grav vehicles, LOS is affected by terrain whereas for flyers its not. I can't be 100% sure though as it doesn't specifically say that...
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Post by comstar on Aug 22, 2013 4:26:15 GMT -5
With flyers I've always make them move (and not to the same spot using the template for movement) unless they are VTOLs then they can hover but they get the aiming bonus but no +2 defense. With Grav I've also allowed pop up attacks from the same spot (Ie they use the movement to gain altitude) but again no aiming bonus, also this is when overwatch becomes your friend as they also get no cover bonus to defense making it a two edged sword! With flank speed I see your point but considering that flank speed is an all out movement not just being fast you could take it they are jinking or should that be wobbling to gain a bonus to defense? Now like you I'm a veteran Battletech player and movement distance does make a real difference to the hit role more so than cover sometimes. One of my small grips was why do vehicles get +2 defense but Gruntz don't unless they have a perk! If you said anything that moves say the 12" or more gets +2 defense there are really fast units out there that could get that as a move and already have a great defense so I could see this breaking very quickly and is a bit more record keeping. But when you consider the super size vehicles are still only getting a defense of maybe 7 or 8 when going flank speed it not much of a bonus they are still a barn door to be shot at! So all I say is well give it a go and see how it plays  Also I know it was in a diferent post but I've always allowed specialist there two weapon systems to be close combat as well as vehicles as I was using these as monsters in V1 of the rules I'll end my ramblings there as my phone is running out of battery and I really need to get my laptop repaired! Again! |
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 22, 2013 5:36:25 GMT -5
With Grav I've also allowed pop up attacks from the same spot (Ie they use the movement to gain altitude) but again no aiming bonus... I like this idea, I think I'll adopt that and give it a whirl if you don't mind If you said anything that moves say the 12" or more gets +2 defense there are really fast units out there that could get that as a move and already have a great defense so I could see this breaking very quickly and is a bit more record keeping. I think the only non aircraft unit that would get a 12" move or over would be the Grav Vehicle Specialists...so really only one specific type of vehicle (not including aircraft)...and these units can already get the bonus by making a flank move anyway. I think giving aircraft a +2 Guard for thundering over the battlefield at a great pace isn't really going to break anything...especially when you can get a cheap perk to negate their +2 bonus for being airborne anyway... But when you consider the super size vehicles are still only getting a defense of maybe 7 or 8 when going flank speed it not much of a bonus they are still a barn door to be shot at! So all I say is well give it a go and see how it plays This is certainly very true. They're almost an auto hit in some cases...even with the +2 Guard. Also I know it was in a diferent post but I've always allowed specialist there two weapon systems to be close combat as well as vehicles as I was using these as monsters in V1 of the rules HMmmmm, I hadn't thought of using this on vehicle specialists...I might give that a go, I could make some smaller, but very useful monsters for my Aliens army if I also allowed this...perhaps a half dozen Tyranid Gaunts would be suited to this size.... |
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