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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 24, 2011 3:44:27 GMT -5
Hello all.
I'm going to use this thread for the more relevant info that I'm building up as I attempt to play Gruntz on the cheap by using my late war German army that was bought for FoW.
There is a lot of discussion on my club forum but it's not all Gruntz related so I'll spare you a lot of that and do some dual posting to here too.
Like I say, the idea is to get as much dual use out of my FoW stuff as possible but get to play the Gruntz rules. I'm doing my best to make this as beleivable (in a 15mm sci-fi toy soldier alternate history setting) as I can. ;D
A lot of what I have so far has been arrived at with the help of Comstar so it's probably more of a joint effort than all my own madness.
I will be posting background, units and findings from playtesting (although not the actual games as Comstar does that so much better).
So, grab your chair and some popcorn. It may well be a bumpy ride.
Posts with actual content to follow.....
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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 24, 2011 3:58:30 GMT -5
Basic idea for use of figures:
FoW Infantry are used for Panzergrenadiers FoW special weapons are used for squad attachments (so tripod MG's, Panzerfaust, etc) FoW special weapons are used for specialists (a place for the Pak 40's and things like that) Sci-Fi infantry are used for Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers (hard suits and jump packs) FoW tanks are used for normal tanks (so I get to use my Pz IV's, StuG G's and possibly later on some Panthers, Tigers, Maus, E-75's, E-100's) FoW arty is used for arty (a place for the big 88's etc) Sci-Fi mecha are used because they look cool. Sci-Fi or kit bashed WWII aircraft are used for air suport. (looking forward to building something here if I can find decent donor kits in the right scale. I'm thinking the ME 262 would be a good start for a tank/mecha buster design)
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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 24, 2011 7:51:10 GMT -5
This is the first draft of a timeline to explain my use of WWII armour in a Gruntz setting. It's not supposed to be an addition to the existing Gruntz universe but a parallel one where my games of Gruntz will take place. I figured the only way to explain Sci-Fi weaponry on late War equipment would be that the technology was gifted / taken rather than being invented. To that end I've created this rather improbable story with a few ideas taken from Star Trek and a certain H P Lovecraft.
The earth in my setting is a backwater planet outside the fringes of explored space. The story starts not long after the start of WWII with Germany at or close to the height of its expansion into Europe. The space faring races have a loose political framework called the Galactic Council with its own law enforcement military which is drawn from its members. As with most political organisations there are thousands of rules and directives most of which are followed only by those member races that want to. There is one however, the 'prime directive' which all agree to and is enforced. It states that first contact of an emergent race to a member of the Galactic Federation must be made by the new race. This is to protect them from exploitation and destruction of their culture and identity before it has a chance to fully develop.
The Nassam are a very small member of the Galactic Federation but they have very big ambitions. Unable to increase their influence through military means and without the natural resources to force any meaningful political alliances they have concentrated their efforts into exploration. The exploitation of raw materials in unclaimed systems on the fringes of inhabited space provides a steady income. By following this path they have also uncovered artefacts of immense age belonging to a disappeared race whose domain had included not only everything within the known galaxies but possibly beyond.
So here is the timeline for the birth of the NSL (New Swabian League)......
The Nassam exploration cruiser orbited the earth as they scanned it for signs of the artefact. Although the planet was inhabited and therefore technically off limits there was a distinct possibility that it was the resting place of a piece of 'old ones' technology. Ownership of that and the secrets it might unlock would put the Nassam in a much more favourable position within the Council. Preliminary scans looked good and a stealth team were dispatched to the south Polar Regions which were the source of the strange readings being observed. When the team returned they urged excavation of the region despite the fact that the planet was populated.
Unable to keep such a large scale mining operation secret from the other members of the Galactic Council it was decided that contact should be made with the local inhabitants. The breaking of pretty much the only hard and fast rule the council had was a risk worth taking given the size of the potential prize. That decision looked liked a good one. With the planets inhabitants in the grips of a world war their intervention stood a chance of remaining covert. A little off-planet aid to one side would not only tip the balance of power in that sides favour but also give them far fewer conflicting interests to deal with. The provision of some out dated technology to these backwater savages in exchange for an item they couldn't possibly understand the importance of. This was going to be the most lucrative deal in Galactic history.
It only took a few short Earth months for the forces of Nazi Germany to start fielding superior weapons and armour. Tanks made from strange alloys that were impossible for enemy shells to penetrate, guns delivering ordinance that sliced through the best of defences like it was paper. Rockets delivering devastating payloads with great accuracy from launch sites thousands of miles from the target. As the resisting nations fell huge numbers of prisoners of war were transported to camps at the South Pole to work in terrible conditions in a massive excavation effort that nobody knew the purpose of.
Just as things were going well for the Nassam pure chance took a hand. A routine patrol fleet from the Galactic Military arrived in local space. The Nassam cruiser had no choice but to break contact with Earth and run for cover. For their plot to be uncovered at this stage would be a disaster. They would be expelled from the Federation and their crime would mark them as an outlaw species for a very long time. Things went from bad to worse as the patrol reported back to the Council that they were suspicious about the speed of technological advancement displayed by the warring planet. They would halt their patrol and be investigating it as best they could without risking discovery.
These investigations took an age. Hampered by the need for secrecy findings were minimal. As things were reported back to the Council great debates were held trying to decide if there had been any meddling in the affairs of Earth. Arguments were put forward claming that there must have been given the speed of development. The Nassam politicians were at the forefront of the view that war increases technological advancement and whilst it did seem fast there was no concrete proof that contact had been made by any outside forces.
During all this time the population of Earth continued to fight, die and dig. Just as the war ended with Germany in total control of the planet the artefact was uncovered. Nothing remarkable to look at it was subjected to intense scrutiny by the best scientist the planet had to offer. The artefact has disturbing effects on the minds of those trying to unlock its secrets. Most of the scientists suffered nervous breakdowns or committed suicide however a few, possibly because they were insane to start with, begin to make fantastic discoveries in all fields of Science and medicine. With nothing more to be gained from its presence and the Galactic Council unable to prove anything their military vessels are recalled from the Earth for fear of detection.
With the war now over the planets dictator renames his people as the New Swabian League. It consists mostly of territories conquered in battle with a few wartime allies holding their own homelands as provinces. With nobody left to conquer the NSL scientific programme is redirected towards space. Modification of the late war rockets used for long range bombing is a simple matter and within months military communication satellites are placed in orbit. The field of biology has undergone a terrific period of discovery during this very short time as well. Countless experiments on prisoners of war have lead to the creation of soldiers genetically modified to feel almost no pain and withstand nuclear and biological attacks on the battlefields. These are ideal candidates for survival in the harsh environment of space needing only minimal life support systems to enable them to function.
Yet again chance plays a part. As if working to some hidden plan this is just the time when the artefact linked scientist make breakthroughs in technology that give them the building blocks of non FTL interplanetary travel. The NSL wastes no time in building an experimental ship in orbit which is dispatched to the moon for field testing. Given the dictators desire for military conquest it is crewed by elite troops and packs the latest weapons available. Whilst in testing these ships notice the return of the Nassam exploration cruiser but remain undetected themselves.
When it is obvious that the NSL are not going to keep their part of the bargain and hand over the artefact the Nassam bluff at military action; thinking that the Earths population would still be in awe of their technology. The plan fails totally as whilst the Nassam’s ships attention is diverted by endless discussion and bargaining it comes under attack from the experimental vessel of the NSL. Taken by surprise the crew are no match for the suicidal dedication of the NSL and the Nassam loose control of the ship. With this new cruiser as a template, its computers full of valuable information and the planets rulers and scientific elite under the sway of the mysterious artefact; NSL military expansion in space is just around the corner…..
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Post by comstar on Oct 24, 2011 9:02:29 GMT -5
Well thats cool Paul very different to GZG NSL but it works for me
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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 24, 2011 9:28:04 GMT -5
Well thats cool Paul very different to GZG NSL but it works for me I like to be different. ;D Remember this is not trying to be an addition to anything others have done. It's all in my own little universe where I can make up the rules (and frequently do). To be fair I didn't know that NSL was a term from GZG so I may change that to avoid confusion.
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Post by inrepose on Oct 24, 2011 11:50:22 GMT -5
Nice background detail.
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Post by evilevan on Oct 24, 2011 12:52:20 GMT -5
I like this idea very much - good to see some Lovecraftian influences slipping in there too!
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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 25, 2011 2:20:38 GMT -5
Had my first actual game last night. 150 point attempt at getting comfortable with the rules and to test out some of my madness. Comstar took pictures so I'm not going to say anything about the game itself but here are my thoughts on how it played.
The game system itself is pure gold but then most of you will know that as you are memebrs of this forum! I really like the way it plays and whilst Comstar and myself have a couple of house rules we stuck pretty much to the main system.
I was very impressed with the way my Sci-Fi-SS operated on the table. I think that is due in no small part to having sensible stat cards for my units. (thanks Comstar for help in creating them). Obviously any rule system which allows this much customisation is open to min/max abuse but stay within the spirit of the game and it plays very well.
That brnigs me onto another point which I'd like to make. There were a couple of times we encountered things not specificially covered by the rules and there was some 'do you think this is possible?' questions asked and 'in game decisions' made. This is not a rule set for hard core tournament players but that's fine as there are plenty of those about. This is an ideal rule set for a fun couple of hours pushing toys around a table and having a laugh.
I was using Flames of War based infantry instead of individual based figures and whilst it worked out ok I did feel that it took a little away from the game. It's perfectly acceptable to play with multi based infantry but it's better to play as designed with single based guys. To be fair the clue is in the name. It's Gruntz not Tankz or Mehaz and it just felt wrong not to give the little guys the flexibility to find individual cover. So it will be FoW based stuff for me at the moment until I can source some more SS and base them up individuallly.
Using the Panzer IV's worked out fine and didn't even look odd on the table.
Next game booked for a weeks time where 300 points of Sci-Fi-SS will take the field. I really must get some time to paint up some stuff and kit bash me a Mecha to try them out.
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Post by havoc7926 on Oct 25, 2011 5:38:17 GMT -5
As an aside.....
I'm no longer using New Swabian League as that's already out there. I'm now calling my Sci-Fi-SS dudes the Neo Teutonic Empire or NTE
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Post by comstar on Oct 25, 2011 7:06:49 GMT -5
NTE that works
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Post by havoc7926 on Nov 1, 2011 4:55:24 GMT -5
OK
After a couple of games I have a couple of conclusions about trying to use FoW stuff in Gruntz.....
Infantry - This is the part that doesn't really work. The game is designed for single based figures and whilst you can use the multi based FoW stuff I think that you loose a little bit from the game. It does work and might be OK if both players used them but I think I do favour single basing.
Tanks - Whilst these work fine within the rules I'm finding that scale is a little bit of an issue. A lot of the 15mm Sci-Fi stuff seems very big in comparison. I'll probably continue using my Pz IV's and StuG's etc but to make it 'feel' better I'm going to downgrade them a bit from medium vehicles to light.
Transports - These don't really work but that is because there is a difference between a WWII transport and how a transport is designed within the game. The Sd 251's provided mobility and some protection from small arms fire however within the Gruntz rules a transport is pretty much a tank without a main gun but with troop carrying capability. For that reason the small cheap transport that I'm trying to represent doesn't really exist. Not sure what I'll do here. I'm going to fiddle with the points costs a bit to see what I can come up with.
EDIT: To be fair in a Sci-Fi setting the role of cheap transport doesn't really exist as I suspect it would be replaced by just giving the Gruntz jet packs!
Other stuff - Not tried the Pak 40's or 88's yet but they really should work out ok.
Mecha - Whilst ther are no Mecha in FoW (funny that!) adding a couple really does 'Sci-Fi-up' the figures so you wil have to invest in a couple but it's a minimal cost.
Air-Support - Gruntz only really has VTOL style transports within it's rules. So the idea of modding up a ME 262 just isn't going to work. There is no place for tank busting aircraft or bombing runs like there is in FoW. So if you want something here then there isn't really a WWII alternative. Helicopters from the later FoW Vietnam range would work if you have a force from that time period but WWII is a bit early for that.
Short version......
So if you want to do it you can save money by using your tanks and suport pieces from FoW. You can get away with multi-based infantry but it's not ideal. You may also find yourself wanting heavy tanks (although I've not tried using Panthers, Tigers and even a Ferdinand, E-100 or Maus as they might look ok as the bigger stuff) You may need to get some form of VTOL air support if you want that. You are going to have to buy some mecha and potentially some power armoured infantry if you want them.
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Post by comstar on Nov 1, 2011 7:42:31 GMT -5
Paul going light may be ok with your Panzers but not sure if they would would workout . As we saw last night medium weapons are by majority slightly worse than the specialist weapons not sure why but they do cost less. It does mean that going from medium chassis to heavy is a big jump in weapons bit not stats wise. I think this may be one of the things robin is going to address (I'm sure he will let us know) in the new addition update Well I'll have a play and see what I can come up with for your jet as I did for an attack helicopter for Raziel Because I also want to see about dropships as well as fighters to see what can be done with the rules
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Post by havoc7926 on Nov 1, 2011 8:11:45 GMT -5
Paul going light may be ok with your Panzers but not sure if they would would workout . As we saw last night medium weapons are by majority slightly worse than the specialist weapons not sure why but they do cost less. It does mean that going from medium chassis to heavy is a big jump in weapons bit not stats wise. I think this may be one of the things robin is going to address (I'm sure he will let us know) in the new addition update Well I'll have a play and see what I can come up with for your jet as I did for an attack helicopter for Raziel Because I also want to see about dropships as well as fighters to see what can be done with the rules It's still early days yet but I feel that mediums struggle too much. I need to either find a way to reduce the points by making them light and having more or I need to run heavy tanks instead. As a chasis the medium is fine but it's outgunned by pretty much everything. Heavy tanks have better guns (as you would expect) and specialists have equal or better guns at the same or a slightly reduced cost. Given that a specialist is cheaper than a medium to start with it leaves medium tanks out in the cold a bit. This may be just me pointing them up wrong or not knowing how to play them properly at this stage. Need a lot more test games to be sure. I also think that the ranges for the weapons are a little short. I don't expect 'proper' ranges on a tank gun as that is a different game than we are trying to model. The problem I have is that a Gruntz unit can combine fire to completely negate the long range penalty but a tank can't. But again, this is after two games so nowhere near enough data for a solid conclusion.
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Post by inrepose on Nov 1, 2011 14:13:15 GMT -5
The specialist points are being balanced in the 1.1 update, making them less of a super cheap quality unit. I have already put some work into the new points system and will share some basics soon to get some feedback.
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Post by havoc7926 on Nov 1, 2011 14:28:37 GMT -5
The specialist points are being balanced in the 1.1 update, making them less of a super cheap quality unit. I have already put some work into the new points system and will share some basics soon to get some feedback. Thanks for the info. On a side note I've just realised my point about the infantry ability to combined fire negating long range is rubbish as you can't combine fire at long range! I hope you don't think I was taking a pop at the Rules. It's all part of a learning process I have when I play new games until I get comfortable with the mechanics. You should have heard all the comments I made about Malifux at the start! ;D So, please take all comments made by me either in a positive way or just ignore them. I applaud what you have achieved so far.
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