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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 10, 2013 7:59:20 GMT -5
I was just wondering if someone could kindly give a detailed explanation of how Vehicles/Mechs/Monsters conduct assaults with close combat weapons against one another, and Gruntz squads. It just doesn't seem to be covered in the rules and the few times it has been asked on here....the crickets are chirping.
If I have a Mech or Monster that wants to assault another Mech or Monster with a close combat weapon, when and how does this take place?
If I have a Mech or Monster that wants to assault a Gruntz squad with a close combat weapon, when and how does this take place?
Could someone please provide a step by step run through, thanks.
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Post by zephyr40k on Aug 11, 2013 20:49:51 GMT -5
Yeah this is a good point. Vehicles can ram an entire squad at once, but it seems even massive monsters can only assault one single Gruntz model at a time.... that seems a bit odd.
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 12, 2013 17:26:48 GMT -5
So I've put down in short point form, how I've been running my various assaults between Gruntz squads and Vehicles (Vehicles includes Mechs and Monsters).
Gruntz assaulting Gruntz is all pretty straight forward so I have not included those assaults here.
Is this pretty much how everyone else has been doing it?
Gruntz Assaulting Vehicles
Same as Gruntz Assaulting Gruntz except for the following;
1. Vehicles can react fire with anti infantry weapons (auto react fire, no need to test)
2. Gruntz who do not have an armour piercing close combat weapon suffer -2 damage
3. To determine winner, compare Gruntz casualties to vehicle damage points
4. Losing vehicles do not take a Mental check and cannot be broken
5. On the next activation, either unit can leave the assault by moving away. The departing unit suffers a free attack from all who were in base to base contact with it
Vehicles Assaulting Gruntz
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may assault units who are in their front arc when activated
3. Gruntz may react fire (-2 damage for non AP weapons)
4. Vehicle must make a full distance move of base move +3”, Gruntz make way but must stay in base contact if touch by ramming vehicle
5. Vehicle makes attacks using Skill stat with close combat weapons or anti infantry weapons against Gruntz in base contact
6. Surviving Gruntz may then attempt to evade the ram by passing a Skill check of 10+
7. Any Gruntz failing to evade take an auto hit from the vehicle using the vehicles ram damage
8. To determine winner, compare Gruntz casualties to vehicle damage points
9. Losing vehicles do not take a Mental check and cannot be broken
10. On the next activation, either unit can leave the assault by moving away. The departing unit suffers a free attack from all who were in base to base contact with it.
Vehicles Assaulting Vehicles
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may assault units who are in their front arc when activated
3. Vehicle must make a full distance move of base move +3”, forcing the enemy unit back to complete it's full move
4. The assaulting unit then makes its close combat attacks using its Skill stat
5. If the enemy unit survives, an auto hit ram attack is made at ram damage +1 AP
6. If vehicle assaults same size class or one category larger, and causes damage from the ram, then the enemy is forced back a further D3”
7. Both vehicles suffer an automatic critical roll to each critical system if ram damage is inflicted
Vehicle Ramming Gruntz
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may ram units who are in their front arc when activated
3. Vehicle must make a full distance move of base move +3”, Gruntz make way but must stay in base contact if touch by ramming vehicle
4. Gruntz may attempt to evade the ram by passing a Skill check of 10+
5. Any Gruntz failing to evade take an auto hit from the vehicle using the vehicles ram damage
Vehicle Ramming Vehicle
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may ram units who are in their front arc when activated
3. Vehicle must make a full distance move of base move +3”, forcing the enemy unit back to complete it's full move
4. All ram attacks are auto hit and are at ram damage +1 AP
5. If vehicle rams same size class or one category larger, and causes damage from the ram, then the enemy is forced back a further D3”
6. Both vehicles suffer an automatic critical roll to each critical system if ram damage is inflicted
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Post by zephyr40k on Aug 12, 2013 17:51:10 GMT -5
Twogunsblazing, that is an excellent list and is very useful. However I see some questions/concerns:
By "Vehicle" do you mean anything that's not a Gruntz? Including mecha and monsters?
So a squad walking away from a vehicle gets auto-attacked by the vehicle? IMHO should specify either "only if vehicle has a close-combat weapon" or "vehicles can take a shot with anti-personnel weapons"
Under Vehicles vs. Vehicles:
So my scout buggy can push an Assault-class superheavy tank 10"? Can I push said superheavy off the table / into impassable terrain? Doesn't seem right. Need some verbage about who can push who.
Should have "If the assaulting vehicle is equipped with a close combat weapon, it then makes its close combat attacks using its skill stat."
What's the difference between "Vehicles Assaulting Gruntz" and "Vehicles Ramming Gruntz?"
Similarly, what's the functional difference between "vehicles assaulting vehicles" and "vehicles ramming vehicles?"
I think those can be merged.
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 12, 2013 18:24:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the response and the advice Zephyr40K, much appreciated!!! By "Vehicle" do you mean anything that's not a Gruntz? Including mecha and monsters? Yes, this is pretty much what I'm going with. I mentioned that at the end of my first sentence in my last post. However your comment brings up another good point...should it also apply to everything other than Vehicles/Mechs/Monsters...should it also be Vehicle Specialists, Artillery, Aircraft etc? So a squad walking away from a vehicle gets auto-attacked by the vehicle? IMHO should specify either "only if vehicle has a close-combat weapon" or "vehicles can take a shot with anti-personnel weapons" Yes, you're right and that is what I intended...I'll reword it later tonight when I get home from work... So my scout buggy can push an Assault-class superheavy tank 10"? Can I push said superheavy off the table / into impassable terrain? Doesn't seem right. Need some verbage about who can push who. Another good point. A small vehicle shouldn't be able to push back a Super Heavy during its ram. Perhaps during the assault/ram as soon as contact is made the assaulter/rammer stops and a push back is only made the D3" after damage is caused and then only by an assaulter/rammer one size category smaller or above? What's the difference between "Vehicles Assaulting Gruntz" and "Vehicles Ramming Gruntz?" Similarly, what's the functional difference between "vehicles assaulting vehicles" and "vehicles ramming vehicles?" I think those can be merged. The difference is that Vehicles without weapons capable of conducting an assault can still ram. I think you are right though, with some more accurate wording, they could be merged. I'll give that a go when I get home tonight as well. Thanks again for the input  |
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 13, 2013 7:12:57 GMT -5
I've tidied up the point form break down of what I am going to use, thanks for your suggestions Zephyr40k.
I think at this stage I will bundle everything that is not a Gruntz Squad, Gruntz Specialist or a Commander, under the banner of vehicle....and just say that Field Artillery and Aircraft can't perform assaults or rams, however can be assaulted or rammed (only if landed for aircraft).
The other problem, which I'll need to think on, is this: Is it fair that in a vehicle vs vehicle assault...say Mech vs Mech, that the assaulter is the only one who gets to inflict damage. When Gruntz are assaulted by a vehicle, they at least have the chance to react fire...as do vehicles when assaulted by Gruntz (if appropriately armed to do so)...
In my example above, should the assaulted Mech have a chance to react fire or react assault in a similar way that Gruntz do when a Gruntz vs Gruntz assault happens?
Gruntz Assaulting Vehicles
Same as Gruntz Assaulting Gruntz except for the following;
1. Vehicles can react fire with anti infantry weapons (auto react fire, no need to test)
2. Gruntz who do not have an armour piercing close combat weapon suffer -2 to their damage roll
3. To determine winner, compare Gruntz casualties to vehicle damage points
4. Losing vehicles do not take a Mental check and cannot be broken
5. On the next activation, either unit can leave the assault by moving away. The unit moving away suffers a free attack from all models that were in base to base contact with it, and who are also armed with close combat or vehicle mounted anti infantry weapons
Vehicles Assaulting/Ramming Gruntz
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may assault/ram Gruntz units that are in their front arc when activated
3. Gruntz may react fire (-2 damage for non AP weapons)
4. Vehicles must make a full distance move equivalent to their base move +3”, Gruntz make way but must stay in base contact if touched by assaulting/ramming vehicle
5. If the assaulting/ramming vehicle is armed with anti infantry or close combat weapons it may now make attacks against Gruntz in base contact, using its Skill stat
6. Gruntz in base contact may then attempt to evade the ram by passing a Skill check of 10+
7. Any Gruntz failing to evade take an auto hit ram attack
8. To determine winner, compare Gruntz casualties to vehicle damage points
9. Losing vehicles do not take a Mental check and cannot be broken
10. On the next activation, either unit can leave the assault by moving away. The unit moving away suffers a free attack from all models that were in base to base contact with it, and who are also armed with close combat or vehicle mounted anti infantry weapons
Vehicles Assaulting/Ramming Vehicles
1. Use two actions
2. Vehicles may assault/ram vehicle units that are in their front arc when activated
3. Vehicles may make a move of up to their base move +3”, stopping when they touch base with their target
4. If the assaulting/ramming vehicle is armed with close combat weapons it may now make close combat attacks using its Skill stat
5. The target vehicle takes an auto hit ram attack
6. If a vehicle assaults/rams a target vehicle of one size category larger or lower, and causes damage with the ram, the target vehicle is forced back a further D3”
7. Both vehicles suffer an automatic critical roll to each critical system if ram damage is inflicted
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Post by Mr. Harold on Aug 13, 2013 7:41:43 GMT -5
Great list man... I'm gonna have to really go through this and see how they work out, but at first glance it seems to be the same way I do things.
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 13, 2013 19:27:31 GMT -5
Thanks mate.
For the vehicle vs vehicle assault, I might make an amendment so that if in point 4, a close combat attack has been made by the attacker, then the process can stop there if the attacker so chooses, as you shouldn't be forced to ram (and risk damaging your critical systems), if you simply want to make a close combat attack...I don't know, I'll have a think on it...seems fair enough on the surface of it...
In saying that though, being forced to risk damage to your critical system does reflect in some small very abstract way the defender perhaps defending against your attack and potentially inflicting damage against you...
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Post by zephyr40k on Aug 13, 2013 19:36:59 GMT -5
then the process can stop there if the attacker so chooses, as you shouldn't be forced to ram (and risk damaging your critical systems), if you simply want to make a close combat attack... It makes sense. Especially in terms of Mecha and Monsters. Walking up to a target and punching it with your Mecha should not require you to also body-slam it. Of course, you can do so if you wish. I'm thinking of the Hulk-Vs. Tank scene in Ang Lee's movie.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAz11GUXsw(IMHO those Abrams should have totally 'pwned' ol' Hulkie if those gunners had decent aim.) |
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Post by twogunsblazing on Aug 15, 2013 8:20:45 GMT -5
I'm thinking of the Hulk-Vs. Tank scene in Ang Lee's movie.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAz11GUXsw(IMHO those Abrams should have totally 'pwned' ol' Hulkie if those gunners had decent aim.) Yeah, that's a pretty cool scene...and he was lucky the gunners didn't get him. The other scene I really liked in tat movie was the fight with the three mutant dogs in the forest at night...that was awesome!!! |
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Post by comstar on Aug 15, 2013 12:41:09 GMT -5
Great list but the ram is not auto hit you still need to make a roll to hit.
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