Flamer / AE - Grenades - Template Weapons

[pfaghe]

Hello

Flamer
is not clear if the flamer template hit automatically or if I have to roll to hit for any model under the template.
we played that: yes all the models under a flamer template are auto-hit (no roll), also the model partially under the template (no bunus).
this one reflect also the anti-cover role of the flamer at short range.

AE - grenades - templates
AE weapons give always a splash demage for models under the template but not directly hit. Also the grenade launchers that are AE weapons. All the std hand grenades don't give any splash demage.

Templates
Only some heavy vehicle weapons have 4" AE template, the standard is 1" and 2" templates.
Grenades templates are usually 2" and 4" for std hand grenades (1-3 and 3-6 men throwing), while grenades launchers have only 2".

Some considerations:
- splash demage is little poor. -5 is a big malus.
- 4" template for hand grenades at demage 7 seems too powerful also if missing D3.
- not clear because there isn't any splash demage using hand grenades.

may be:
- use 2 x 2" templates for 3-6 men hand grenades. roll to hit and deviation for both.
- hand grenades are AE weapons.
- give to all the AE weapons splash demage.
- make splash demage little better, for example -2 to demage instead of -5. another option may be standard demage but a model partially under the template is hit with 4+

thanks
Paolo

[comstar]

Ok Paolo I hope I can help here


Flamer

With the flamer you have to roll to hit everyone touched by the template as normal but no cover bonus to Guard.

The damage is the same for everyone under the template as well no splash damage which is its benefit.


AE - grenades - templates

The reason that there is no splash damage is as there are several grenades going in a one time not one with a blast.

It only has 6" range and a D3" scatter.

(the one thing that is different is that it states area not radius so 2" is !" radius and 4" is 2" radius I'm sure Robin will correct if that's wrong otherwise it is a huge area!)

Templates

Only some heavy vehicle weapons have 4"e; AE template, the standard is 1"e; and 2"e; templates.
Grenades templates are usually 2"e; and 4" for std hand grenades (1-3 and 3-6 men throwing), while grenades launchers have only 2"e;.

Remember those are radius not area


Some considerations:
- splash damage is little poor. -5 is a big minus.

Yes I agree but seems to work well in the game

- 4"e; template for hand grenades at damage 7 seems too powerful also if missing D3.

Only used them once but again short range and do have to hit everyone under template as well.

- not clear because there isn't any splash damage using hand grenades.

As above: The reason that there is no splash damage is as there are several grenades going in a one time not one with a blast.

Cheers Matt

[pfaghe]

With the flamer you have to roll to hit everyone touched by the template as normal but no cover bonus to Guard. The damage is the same for everyone under the template as well no splash damage which is its benefit.
not found in the book, where is it? indeed we like it

The reason that there is no splash damage is as there are several grenades going in a one time not one with a blast.
a fair answer, game-speaking is better for us to give the same splash demage to all the area effect with deviation in the game, easier to remember

the one thing that is different is that it states area not radius so 2" is 1" radius and 4" is 2" radius. I'm sure Robin will correct if that's wrong otherwise it is a huge area!
Yes! you are right! Area is not radius, my fault!

Yes I agree but seems to work well in the game
We opened this question because in our games not worked so well.
Very few AE weapons around and -5 demage often = no kill with weapons at demage <12, the % change with weapons at demage >=12.
The problem is that the spalsh malus is fixed while the weapon's demage change

Only used them once but again short range and do have to hit everyone under template as well.
No, with grenades is exactly like with AE area you don't have to roll to hit for every model under the template (pag.17), but like you said before we hope that 4-6 model throw a 2" radius template with d3" scatter possibility if the single roll will miss

thanks a lot
Paolo

[jeffw75]

I was unable to find any reference in the rules to rolling to hit models under the spray template, either, and this question has come up in game. It seems a little redundant to place the template AND roll to hit. Would it be possible to lose the to-hit rolls and reduce the flamer damage to stream-line the process?

[comstar]

Oct 17, 2011 12:18:08 GMT -5 jeffw75 said:

I was unable to find any reference in the rules to rolling to hit models under the spray template, either, and this question has come up in game. It seems a little redundant to place the template AND roll to hit. Would it be possible to lose the to-hit rolls and reduce the flamer damage to stream-line the process?

Alot of the rules are based on Warmachine and it was clarified on the forum by Robin I think somewhere
I think auto hit would not work as even reducing damage would make it to powerful

Cheers Matt

[kikashi]

The template numbers are diameter NOT radius!

[comstar]

Oct 17, 2011 13:59:25 GMT -5 kikashi said:

The template numbers are diameter NOT radius!

Sorry you are correct diameter not radius my bad

[pfaghe]

sorry comstar confused me with ranges and diameters, so please read my original post.
my concern is about hand grenades that at demage 7 and area 4" (or 2"radius not change) is little too powerful.

only this one.

about flamer I quote, will be better if somewhere it be clear that the flamer give or not any cover bonus to the guard.
about roll to hit or not is another thing. Also could be better to not roll to hit there.

some numbers, correct me if wrong:
using a roll to hit, a model with shooting 5 with a flamer demage 8 firing at a model under the template with guard 12 and soak 12 will have about 54% to kill that model.
a model using a flamer with demage 4, without any roll to hit on soak 12, will have about 42% to kill a model under the template. with demage 5 will have instead 58% to kill.

[gypsycomet]

So the flamer template is similar to the Warmachine Spray template? The rules don't describe it.

Along similar lines, the deviation roll is also Warmachine based? I'm new to Gruntz and the only actual description of the deviation technique I found was on the quick reference. Everywhere else said "using a deviation die".

[inrepose]

Deviation is based on a dice using a D6 plus a deviation dice. Deviation dice have a little Arrow on them and point the direction the blast deviates. It will be updated with images of the templates in v.1.1 which were missing in the original rules. I will get a photo of a deviation dice into 1.1 along with the template sizes.

The new templates show you various sizes which I think are the same as the GW and PP flamer templates, accept the default of 6inches for carried flame style weapons is marked onto the plastic, so it can be used as the carried flamer (6inches) or vehicle flamer (8inches).

[gypsycomet]

The PP spray template is visibly narrower than the GW, but I can work with that assumption for now.

[kerrygray8]

Apologies for the threadomancy, but I am still a little confused about hand grenades

If 1 Grunt throws his grenade, I understand that uses the 2" diameter template. However, I then have a few questions:

1) Does the Grunt have to target a MODEL with his grenade (e.g. a model in an enemy Gruntz unit) or can the Grunt throw at a point on the ground (e.g. right between 2 enemy Gruntz in order to hit both)?

2) When the 2" diameter template is placed, is full damage applied to every model FULLY UNDER the template, or every model TOUCHED by the template?

3) Related to the above, are hand grenades intended to deal full damage to targets fully under the template, but only splash damage to other targets touched by the template? (although, I'm sure I read somewhere that hand grenades don't do splash damage at all........)

4) If the Grunt throwing the grenade DOES have to target a model (rather than a 'point in space'), if the grenade scatters and the template ends up covering (but not centred on) a different model, does this model take full grenade damage?

5) Related to question 2): When several Gruntz throw grenades together and use the 4" diameter template, do all targets FULLY COVERED take full damage, or all targets TOUCHED take full damage? (and / or how does splash damage come in here?)

6) In a unit of 6 Gruntz, can 4 of them throw grenades together (to get the 4" diameter template) and then the other 2 throw their grenades individually (for a further two 2" diameter templates)?


We've been happy enough to House Rule this in our games so far (probably quite inconsistently if memory serves!) but I'd be interested in any clarifications of discussions of how hand grenades are intended to function.

Cheers!