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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 14, 2012 12:44:21 GMT -5
nope, but that is easily added in from any of the other games that do I just really liked it as an initiative system and I have used it with StarGrunt and Dirtside without any changes. Can you break down the types of cards and number of them in more detail? I will see if I can dig the pack out over the weekend and list it here. Some of the other reasons I liked it were that you don't need to worry about declaring overwatch, it is inherent in the card initiative system, and you may not be able to interrupt if you don't have the right numbered card.
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 14, 2012 15:24:12 GMT -5
I have played a couple of indie style fantasy 28mm games recently where activation can flow more randomly and found myself watching my opponent play a game while I sat back and waited for them to finish my troops off. Unless I have confused your sequence I think the fact that you might get two activations of a couple of tanks before your opponent could unbalance play? That would probably be my final comment - if a game is won on the fact that a player gets lucky enough to have two activations in a row it does make it a little less balanced as a game but equally this could simply be reflecting the real chaos of a battle where an army gets a lucky window to exploit against the enemy. Definitely our observation. Manoeuvre, especially with lighter vehicles, becomes a bit more of a gamble. This was the reason we abandoned taking a shoot action on any activation (ie: shoot twice / turn), it was far too deadly. Move -or- Shoot however is up to the player. Fair warning: This method requires more effort to track the status of units. I think your overview write up would be clearer to read if you separated it into Turns, Unit Activations and Actions. I was initially confused when I read that you have two actions because a unit already does have two actions in the game but only one activation. Good point. We really haven't changed much; A turn is complete when all Units have completed their two actions. The big difference is that each unit will be activated twice in a turn, taking only one action each time. Actions remain as before: Shoot (once per turn only!), Move (up to twice per turn) or to go on Overwatch (takes up the following action!).
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Post by inrepose on Sept 17, 2012 3:50:21 GMT -5
There was one other item I forgot to mention. Suppression is core to Gruntz rules, with a the degrading of the opponent by suppression being key. With two actions you can use one to remove suppression, followed by moving or shooting. With your modification how do you handle suppression when they take 1 action? Do they simply remove suppression and do nothing else? Does that create a situation where an enemy unit could suppress them again before the activate and therefore stop them acting at all?
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 17, 2012 19:24:02 GMT -5
Thanks Robin, I think you have really hit the crux of the matter. With your modification how do you handle suppression when they take 1 action? Do they simply remove suppression and do nothing else? Does that create a situation where an enemy unit could suppress them again before they activate and therefore stop them acting at all? Yup. This is really an issue if you get multiple attackers able to stagger their fire on a vulnerable target, but then they are focusing fire on a unit (or units) to keep them suppressed instead of firing on other targets.... Not sure that does enough to balance the issue. In fact it is for this sort of reason we brought the subject up in the first place; is this approach a game breaker?
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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 18, 2012 3:33:07 GMT -5
Thanks Robin, I think you have really hit the crux of the matter. With your modification how do you handle suppression when they take 1 action? Do they simply remove suppression and do nothing else? Does that create a situation where an enemy unit could suppress them again before they activate and therefore stop them acting at all? Yup. This is really an issue if you get multiple attackers able to stagger their fire on a vulnerable target, but then they are focusing fire on a unit (or units) to keep them suppressed instead of firing on other targets.... Not sure that does enough to balance the issue. In fact it is for this sort of reason we brought the subject up in the first place; is this approach a game breaker? I don't think it is, as the firing unit is unable to do anything else ie. they sacrifice the ability to move to suppress an opposing unit. It would be unbalanced if they could move AND fire to put the suppression on the target and the target only had the one action in response. It works the same way with the one i proposed.
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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 19, 2012 15:01:28 GMT -5
Can you break down the types of cards and number of them in more detail? I will see if I can dig the pack out over the weekend and list it here. Some of the other reasons I liked it were that you don't need to worry about declaring overwatch, it is inherent in the card initiative system, and you may not be able to interrupt if you don't have the right numbered card. okay 80 card deck consisting of the following cards; Move - 6 x 6, 5, 4 ----- 2 x 3,2,1 (24 cards) Fire - 8 x 6 ------- 4 x 5, 4, 3 ------ 2 x 2, 1 (24 cards) Assault - 2 x 6 ---- 4 x 5 ----- 2 x 4 ----- 4 x 3 ----- 2 x 2,1 (16 cards) Suppression fire - 2 x 2,1 (4 cards) Ambush - 4 x 3, 2, 1 (12 cards) So Operation overlord had a line of sight and spot test rule for seeing the enemy. the above cards allowed the following; Move - doohh!! Fire - shoot if line of sight AND able to spot Assault - Move into contact AND fire (at -1) as you assault Suppression fire - shoot if line of sight at -5 Ambush - Shoot if line of sight AND able to spot at +1 Basically you tended to hold onto Ambush cards to defend against assaults. this would seem like a pretty easy set of mechanics to transport over to Gruntz and implement.
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 19, 2012 20:53:37 GMT -5
Urk.. Confused. Help. These cards are used to assign orders / actions, with the lower number card taking priority over a higher numbered one? Okay, 80 card deck consisting of the following cards; Move - 6 x 6, 5, 4 ----- 2 x 3,2,1 (24 cards) I'm reading this as: Six x priority '6' move orders Six x priority '5' move orders Six x priority '4' move orders Two x priority '3' move orders Two x priority '2' move orders Two x priority '1' move orders For a total of twenty four movement order cards... Am I right? If so, then the rest of the cards count out the same way, yes? Fire - 8 x 6 ------- 4 x 5, 4, 3 ------ 2 x 2, 1 (24 cards) Assault - 2 x 6 ---- 4 x 5 ----- 2 x 4 ----- 4 x 3 ----- 2 x 2,1 (16 cards) Suppression fire - 2 x 2,1 (4 cards) Ambush - 4 x 3, 2, 1 (12 cards) So Operation overlord had a line of sight and spot test rule for seeing the enemy. the above cards allowed the following; Move - doohh!! Fire - shoot if line of sight AND able to spot Assault - Move into contact AND fire (at -1) as you assault Suppression fire - shoot if line of sight at -5 Ambush - Shoot if line of sight AND able to spot at +1 Basically you tended to hold onto Ambush cards to defend against assaults. this would seem like a pretty easy set of mechanics to transport over to Gruntz and implement. I went back to your Original Post about this method of play. Sounds pretty cool. and worth a try. Is there somewhere we can go to see this mechanic explained in greater detail? Curious about the spotting rules, but I think this is almost playable just like this. ;D
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Post by far4ngn on Oct 22, 2012 3:22:21 GMT -5
The cards approach is used well in IABSM (I aint been shot yet mum) WWII rules or coloured dice are used for a simpler game in the new Bolt Action WWII set.
The cards are one per squad, plus commander, mortar, tank etc and can only take an action when the card is drawn.... although they have a few random events and a tea break card to stop the turn before all the players have moved.
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Post by demonetrigan on Oct 22, 2012 10:05:58 GMT -5
The cards approach is used well in IABSM (I aint been shot yet mum) WWII rules or coloured dice are used for a simpler game in the new Bolt Action WWII set. The cards are one per squad, plus commander, mortar, tank etc and can only take an action when the card is drawn.... although they have a few random events and a tea break card to stop the turn before all the players have moved. yeah the IABSM system works well but is really just a random draw element to activation. This system is interesting because you often find your plans for the turn going out the window as you react to your opponent and facing the choice of keeping the good cards for your turn or using them to react. I keep getting to the end of a turn and going 'Dooh....that wasn't what I planned to happen at all'
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Post by inrepose on Oct 23, 2012 4:58:24 GMT -5
This sounds interesting, in that the possibility of driving reactions from a card mechanism could speed things up and I am already a big supporter of card initiative/activation. Drawing a quick card, rather than rolling dice and measuring etc could help develop a slick reaction system that bolts into the rules.
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Post by demonetrigan on Oct 23, 2012 10:00:06 GMT -5
This sounds interesting, in that the possibility of driving reactions from a card mechanism could speed things up and I am already a big supporter of card initiative/activation. Drawing a quick card, rather than rolling dice and measuring etc could help develop a slick reaction system that bolts into the rules. it works well for both that, and removing the whole concept of players taking turns. The game feels like it flows a lot better with the control of the battlefield passing from player to player as the cards are used.
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Oct 23, 2012 17:58:45 GMT -5
This sounds interesting, in that the possibility of driving reactions from a card mechanism could speed things up and I am already a big supporter of card initiative/activation. Drawing a quick card, rather than rolling dice and measuring etc could help develop a slick reaction system that bolts into the rules. it works well for both that, and removing the whole concept of players taking turns. The game feels like it flows a lot better with the control of the battlefield passing from player to player as the cards are used. Yes, exactly that.
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Post by inrepose on Nov 7, 2012 10:45:02 GMT -5
Has anyone given this a try yet. The playing card activation rules as per the latest release are unmodified and still based on the simple activation process. It would be interesting to hear how this modified process works and if it is workable in a test game.
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Nov 7, 2012 11:15:21 GMT -5
Nothing new to report from Vancouver. We have been focusing on our plans for campaign play.
To sum up what we agreed on after giving card based play a bit of a work-out: The playing card activation optional rules as they are found in Gruntz! are our favourite so far for a small game. The extra time taken at the start of the turn to plan your 'orders' can have a greater impact on larger games.
Straight up, one colour for you - and another for me card activation has been perfect for those larger games. Very quick and presenting a strong fog-of-war effect. We didn't realise it at the time, but effectively this is a method similar to that found in the new Bolt Action WWII game.
We haven't made up a set of the order cards ranked by priority. Still not entirely clear about how that is supposed to play, a review of this thread and some effort could make a go of it.
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