peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 4, 2012 11:06:56 GMT -5
I'm a fan of the Optional Playing Card Activation found on p. 60. Really adds a degree of detail and strategy to the game, and my buddies like it too. But for multi-player games it's a bit slow... As an alternative we have gone with a 'Two-Card' system. Your feed-back on this approach, as well as the optional ideas we are playing with, is most welcome! 'Two-Card Activation'Each side, or player, is assigned two cards and all cards are shuffled into a pile. - A card is drawn and that side, or player, may take ONE action with ALL their units.
- The next card is drawn and again, the corresponding side, or player, may take ONE action with ALL their units.
- When all cards have been drawn each player will have completed TWO Actions and the turn is over.
- Shuffle the cards and start a new turn.
You don't need a pair of cards per player; you can assign multiple players to control squads or vehicles on a side and on that side's turn, each player takes an action. But you could just as easily play a game with more than two forces involved. This approach -the way it breaks down the turn- has added a few interesting details and opportunities to our play and we are exploring those. The coolest aspect seems to be that turns become very fluid with detailed action and interruptions continuing despite the game cracking along. Vehicle movement takes on a new significance. We track a vehicle's speed with a counter, so that a vehicle moving twice can get to Flank Speed. The vehicle can come to a complete stop on any activation, but it can't count as 'not moved' for a shoot bonus if it had just been at Flank Speed. We are concerned about breaking the game, but we are playing with the following options as well. They make the game more deadly, which may be better suited to the fast resolution of a multi-player game -or not. Again your feed-back is sought... - Units can Move or Shoot as an action on any activation. This is a big change. It effectively means every unit can Shoot twice during a complete turn. It's easier to do this than track shooting status for every unit, but this runs counter to the core of the game.
- Infantry can go on Over-watch as an action, on any activation. Not much to say here. It just sort of made sense during play.
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Post by timvidlak on Sept 4, 2012 12:18:09 GMT -5
The alternate activation sequence you are using sound like a very fair & balanced game mechanic over all. I will try using it myself in the near future. I do see a few minor Mechanics that may effect the Mechanics of Gruntz in a major way. 1st is that you are allowing all units to shoot twice in a turn this increase the casualties you can inflict every turn & actually is a perk that cost points for any unit able to do so. 2nd is that you allow a unit to go on Over-Watch for a single action what I would suggest is leave Over-Watch as a 2 action activation but mark the unit so you know it gets no action on it's next activation simply add a marker with a 1 on it to simulate th unit has begun Over-Watch remove this token on the units next activation, but leave the Over-Watch token util its next activation. Using a 2 action over watch also allows you to show a unit is assigned to cover Fire duty.
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Post by Mr. Harold on Sept 4, 2012 13:14:15 GMT -5
Hmmm... interesting! I would probably try and keep it that you can only shoot once per turn, but just for the points timvidlak brought up. I've been trying to come up with a random card activation that still brings initiative into play. I was thinking: Each player gets a random card for each unit on the table. They then order them by placing what card to what unit. Each side rolls for initiative, and the winner gets a "joker" card. This card allows one unit on the that side to change when it activates. Either right as an enemy unit activates, or right after they've finished you can play the joker on the unit of your choice. Haven't tried it yet (waiting for 1.1) but should be interesting
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 4, 2012 19:47:36 GMT -5
Ok, so based on feedback from today's three-player game using these this 'mod' we came to the conclusion that moving or shooting as an action on any activation is a game breaker.
Got to keep the shooting to ONCE per turn. So we will have to track shots taken.
Similarly, spending two actions for Over-watch will be on the books, but we aren't 100% with that yet.
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Post by Mr. Harold on Sept 4, 2012 21:10:15 GMT -5
Interesting, thanks for the note!
What happens when you draw a card that isn't assigned?
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peabody
Grunt
Canuck Amok
Posts: 95
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Post by peabody on Sept 4, 2012 21:30:32 GMT -5
That won't happen... You only have enough cards for your players. 2 players or teams of players on each side: 4 cards. For example, 2 red & 2 black. Player 1 goes on black cards and player 2 on red cards. Multiple independent players: assign two cards to each player.
I think if you had more than four players you would just want to deal out a card to each player and have them go in playing-card order.
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Post by Mr. Harold on Sept 4, 2012 21:38:11 GMT -5
Ah... ok, that clears it up! I was thinking you actually did a lot more work than that. That seems really easy. It seems like you could have some fun tense moments as everyone watches waiting for the card to turn over...
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Post by timvidlak on Sept 12, 2012 10:10:11 GMT -5
I will be using a version of the Card Activation to allow Larger Games of Gruntz But the First thing I will do is at the Beginning of the Game Each unit will be assigned a Card to represent it & will activate when the Card is Drawn. Additionally Weapons Specialist will have to be Assigned to a particular Squad or formed into small Squads with 2 or 3 teams minimum per squad but they may fire at Different Targets but activate as a single unit & must stay within 6" Unit Coherency. Vehicles & other Specialist will also be formed into squads with the possible exception of Sub Commanders Medics & Mechanics with a 9" unit coherency to represent the size taken up by a Vehcle. This is for large games above the Platoon Level Even going up to & above the Company Level Approximately 1500 or 2000 Points & Above. Using this Activation system will really give a feel for the chaos of the battle field as you are not guaranteed when your next unit will activate or which of your units will activate & make it so you don't have to wait for your opponent to finish all his activations before you get a chance to respond.
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Post by carnyx on Sept 13, 2012 16:57:31 GMT -5
I was lucky enough to play in these games with Peabody, really enjoyed the games. This style of activation favors mulitple players or larger forces and still retains the fog of war. Great fun Carnyx
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Post by inrepose on Sept 14, 2012 3:31:00 GMT -5
I think this card option works and it is certainly helping speed activation for a larger game. I think I hinted in the rules that per unit alternating activation can slow down a game. Anything over about 20 separate units between all players and I-GO, U-GO suddenly starts looking more attractive from a gaming perspective. I remember old Battletech games where we had 30+ models per side and by 4am in the morning we had lost the will to live with the alternating activation beginning to take its toll on our mental capacity to pass activation around. The common shout would be "Who's go is it now" followed by a quick scout the board around and the question "Are you sure you have not already activated that model"?
I think you are managing a "turn" where you get two activations of a unit, however you are actually still working on the same Gruntz activation principles, because over the course of the game it is likely that activation may alternate so the chances of having two activations in a row (of the same unit) is minimised. I am a bit concerned that a player through the game might be simply lucky and find times when they get a vital second shot with a tank by the luck of the draw. I have played a couple of indie style fantasy 28mm games recently where activation can flow more randomly and found myself watching my opponent play a game while I sat back and waited for them to finish my troops off. Unless I have confused your sequence I think the fact that you might get two activations of a couple of tanks before your opponent could unbalance play?
That would probably be my final comment - if a game is won on the fact that a player gets lucky enough to have two activations in a row it does make it a little less balanced as a game but equally this could simply be reflecting the real chaos of a battle where an army gets a lucky window to exploit against the enemy.
I think your overview write up would be clearer to read if you separated it into Turns, Unit Activations and Actions. I was initially confused when I read that you have two actions because a unit already does have two actions in the game but only one activation.
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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 14, 2012 3:50:56 GMT -5
I liked the system in Altozero (?) the WWII game where you had a hand of cards (1 per element) and an additional 1 or 2 based on the tactical flexibility. the cards were move,shoot, assault I think and numbered from 1-7 with there being more cards in the deck of higher numbers. it then works on an interrupt system with lower numbered cards trumping higher numbers. i.e. I play a move 7 card on a tank and halfway in the move my opponent plays a shoot 3 on their AT team to fire at the tank, I respond by playing a shoot 2 card on a support MG which fires and adds a suppressed counter to the AT team, which then fires at the tank with a negative modifier, then if it survives the tank completes it's move. at the end of that three units have activated for the turn and the opponent plays a card. at the end of the turn players draw cards from the deck to bring their hand back to the maximum allowed (i.e. surviving elements + Tactical bonus). If you have a really good card that you don't want to waste you can sacrifice moving or shooting an element and keep it in your hand. It was a great system that lead to a really flowing game that moved all over the place, and you found yourself constantly balancing your need to act against the capability to respond. Shame the rest of the game was crap this would be really easy to implement in Gruntz though as you simply make the tactical flexibility a commanders perkz to add one card to the hand, and off you go.
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Post by inrepose on Sept 14, 2012 4:09:37 GMT -5
That sounds like an interesting game. Did they have any wild-card draws which would trigger events or improve the actions of a mode/unit?
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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 14, 2012 6:32:58 GMT -5
nope, but that is easily added in from any of the other games that do I just really liked it as an initiative system and I have used it with StarGrunt and Dirtside without any changes.
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Post by papabees on Sept 14, 2012 9:40:21 GMT -5
nope, but that is easily added in from any of the other games that do I just really liked it as an initiative system and I have used it with StarGrunt and Dirtside without any changes. Can you break down the types of cards and number of them in more detail?
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Post by demonetrigan on Sept 14, 2012 12:43:54 GMT -5
nope, but that is easily added in from any of the other games that do I just really liked it as an initiative system and I have used it with StarGrunt and Dirtside without any changes. Can you break down the types of cards and number of them in more detail? I will see if I can dig the pack out over the weekend and list it here. Some of the other reasons I liked it were that you don't need to worry about declaring overwatch, it is inherent in the card initiative system, and you may not be able to interrupt if you don't have the right numbered card.
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